Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from holmes.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Mon, 27 Feb 89 03:16:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Mon, 27 Feb 89 03:16:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPACE Digest V9 #263 SPACE Digest Volume 9 : Issue 263 Today's Topics: NASA Prediction Bulletins Re: the un/manned debate ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Feb 89 19:09:22 GMT From: tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil (TS Kelso) Subject: NASA Prediction Bulletins The most current orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are carried on the Celestial RCP/M, (513) 427-0674, and are updated several times weekly. Documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current of these elements are uploaded weekly to sci.space. This week's elements are provided below. The Celestial RCP/M may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. - Current NASA Prediction Bulletins #463 - Alouette 1 1 00424U 89 52.33506446 0.00000313 36577-3 0 1859 2 00424 80.4595 40.0220 0024915 69.0184 291.3652 13.67077530316984 LAGEOS 1 08820U 89 50.96400173 0.00000000 10000-3 0 6596 2 08820 109.8077 189.9320 0044691 340.7791 19.0874 6.38664007 43140 GOES 2 1 10061U 89 49.09834618 -.00000007 0 2288 2 10061 6.8689 69.7118 0007318 182.4683 177.7958 1.00266245 4183 GPS-0001 1 10684U 89 47.29564477 0.00000012 0 353 2 10684 63.5169 104.5823 0106310 198.6707 161.0048 2.00561899 66106 GPS-0002 1 10893U 89 47.25139571 -.00000028 0 9575 2 10893 64.5352 345.4191 0149238 28.1734 332.6175 2.00560048 78925 GOES 3 1 10953U 89 51.14602075 0.00000090 10000-3 0 5905 2 10953 5.7466 72.3673 0010057 253.4302 106.9846 1.00269805 1464 SeaSat 1 1 10967U 89 47.09926278 0.00002310 86484-3 0 779 2 10967 108.0111 38.2804 0001472 288.4026 71.6977 14.34288013556722 GPS-0003 1 11054U 89 47.06824264 -.00000028 0 9844 2 11054 64.0923 341.9188 0052091 117.2116 243.3248 2.00560185 75934 GPS-0004 1 11141U 89 52.16326277 0.00000012 0 1012 2 11141 63.5140 104.3245 0081256 319.9179 39.4420 2.00552911 74737 NOAA 6 1 11416U 89 49.09633097 0.00001483 64374-3 0 8115 2 11416 98.5037 49.6637 0012305 100.0559 260.2023 14.25482643500934 Solar Max 1 11703U 89 53.09095023 0.00049619 11654-2 0 8564 2 11703 28.5004 4.8697 0003124 225.2112 134.8169 15.40645933502001 GPS-0006 1 11783U 89 40.64907892 -.00000028 0 8433 2 11783 63.9035 341.7936 0139033 62.3184 299.0901 2.00566038 64442 GOES 4 1 11964U 89 31.83054292 -.00000125 10000-3 0 505 2 11964 5.1628 75.4889 0035056 93.1723 267.2187 0.99232053 679 GOES 5 1 12472U 89 47.00291526 -.00000248 10000-3 0 6949 2 12472 2.2354 81.9841 0004457 326.2677 33.8779 1.00282750 27391 UOSAT 1 1 12888U 89 48.55577078 0.00058464 12468-2 0 4578 2 12888 97.5813 95.8038 0003250 156.6309 203.5093 15.44699395410434 Meteor 2-08 1 13113U 89 45.67438189 0.00000448 39388-3 0 6234 2 13113 82.5440 156.1349 0016619 50.1258 310.1384 13.83937442348297 Salyut 7 1 13138U 89 51.76295734 0.00035275 94508-3 0 4470 2 13138 51.6127 165.9194 0000686 353.5366 6.5732 15.37661767390257 Meteor 2-09 1 13718U 89 44.97562209 0.00000370 18950-3 0 7471 2 13718 81.2442 42.0704 0056244 350.8032 9.2096 14.13081586318153 GOES 6 1 14050U 89 43.97965187 0.00000121 0 9101 2 14050 0.9882 84.2081 0000453 279.8763 355.8845 1.00265980 5369 OSCAR 10 1 14129U 89 44.26630755 -.00000008 10000-3 0 3790 2 14129 26.6809 280.2786 6055765 17.2066 356.6609 2.05878094 14664 GPS-0008 1 14189U 89 40.74036426 0.00000011 0 6050 2 14189 63.1490 103.3440 0133449 214.6235 144.5770 2.00572908 40881 Meteor 2-10 1 14452U 89 47.17364452 0.00000593 25106-3 0 6907 2 14452 81.1597 54.8090 0096431 85.2536 275.9655 14.21999061275349 LandSat 5 1 14780U 89 46.36496470 0.00002422 54727-3 0 6529 2 14780 98.1787 110.8600 0001298 233.9620 126.1520 14.57122910263823 UOSAT 2 1 14781U 89 48.58832771 0.00002862 56662-3 0 4092 2 14781 98.0229 110.8213 0013273 341.8255 18.2631 14.62996245265050 LDEF 1 14898U 89 48.20509040 0.00034111 74513-3 0 7607 2 14898 28.5093 296.9062 0002336 340.6455 19.4693 15.42802072272851 GPS-0009 1 15039U 89 47.27699171 0.00000011 0 6243 2 15039 62.8913 102.4511 0015188 281.0750 78.8227 2.00564671 34292 Meteor 2-11 1 15099U 89 47.54455613 0.00000295 25798-3 0 9242 2 15099 82.5302 102.3367 0012159 211.1449 148.8986 13.83611369233438 GPS-0010 1 15271U 89 50.16870139 -.00000028 0 5730 2 15271 63.4023 341.3063 0099680 318.3324 40.7852 2.00562617 31461 Cosmos 1602 1 15331U 89 52.03864643 0.00003783 55823-3 0 9795 2 15331 82.5354 85.6146 0026596 100.9873 259.4336 14.74854958237096 NOAA 9 1 15427U 89 41.43112783 0.00001069 60598-3 0 3338 2 15427 99.1327 25.9792 0014881 312.5249 47.4947 14.11821401214560 Meteor 2-12 1 15516U 89 41.08309003 0.00000126 10316-3 0 503 2 15516 82.5306 45.8499 0017846 109.3436 250.9654 13.84030867203472 Cosmos 1686 1 16095U 89 52.15291198 0.00015423 42011-3 0 1730 2 16095 51.6087 164.0252 0000847 281.7346 78.4211 15.37665152390310 GPS-0011 1 16129U 89 41.34990022 0.00000012 0 2961 2 16129 63.6714 103.1894 0115548 150.5484 210.1806 2.00565329 24494 Meteor 3-1 1 16191U 89 39.65228076 0.00000043 10000-3 0 8037 2 16191 82.5509 326.6335 0018441 260.7677 99.1415 13.16859281158603 Meteor 2-13 1 16408U 89 48.69205070 0.00000300 25891-3 0 4611 2 16408 82.5366 314.6800 0015296 279.7134 80.2320 13.84121776159021 Mir 1 16609U 89 51.75060112 0.00057348 42852-3 0 6994 2 16609 51.6193 230.0885 0012169 301.3870 58.5808 15.72037900172981 SPOT 1 1 16613U 89 52.74202406 0.00001755 84225-3 0 3711 2 16613 98.7095 128.9928 0001615 119.5264 240.6323 14.20062041 68315 Meteor 2-14 1 16735U 89 41.84631399 0.00000253 21787-3 0 2773 2 16735 82.5372 346.8758 0015664 10.3925 349.7569 13.83848906136984 Cosmos 1766 1 16881U 89 52.99829129 0.00005750 85562-3 0 5257 2 16881 82.5278 144.4099 0024820 112.6625 247.7341 14.74587130138312 EGP 1 16908U 89 38.17532047 -.00000033 38697-4 0 1176 2 16908 50.0133 337.7587 0011308 16.5812 343.5388 12.44375026113221 FO-12 1 16909U 89 38.07742442 -.00000025 10000-3 0 1299 2 16909 50.0179 338.2722 0011061 13.5524 346.5603 12.44397497113209 NOAA 10 1 16969U 89 41.58262838 0.00000786 36667-3 0 1909 2 16969 98.6510 74.4169 0012704 257.6903 102.3104 14.22804260125939 Meteor 2-15 1 17290U 89 47.03551444 0.00000212 18169-3 0 2246 2 17290 82.4674 250.9476 0012200 242.0465 117.9453 13.83666575106864 GOES 7 1 17561U 89 32.87866317 -.00000103 10000-3 0 2270 2 17561 0.0936 256.3952 0004029 308.3915 155.2428 0.99988189 408 Kvant 1 17845U 89 52.13199516 0.00059648 44452-3 0 6770 2 17845 51.6196 228.1341 0012288 301.9370 57.9506 15.72083211109316 RS-10/11 1 18129U 89 51.85471640 0.00000014 88683-5 0 6752 2 18129 82.9313 324.0928 0012418 21.4050 338.7645 13.71944261 83448 Cosmos 1870 1 18225U 89 52.70547397 0.00202690 20071-4 29209-3 0 9004 2 18225 71.8859 5.4496 0009309 236.0691 124.0118 16.05154252 92777 Meteor 2-16 1 18312U 89 48.06578440 0.00000448 39818-3 0 2426 2 18312 82.5600 314.7178 0011815 167.5822 192.5632 13.83426607 75905 Meteor 2-17 1 18820U 89 50.85139095 0.00000282 24377-3 0 854 2 18820 82.5397 13.7863 0015569 236.8107 123.1589 13.84095740 53453 AO-13 1 19216U 89 40.26552022 0.00000016 10000-3 0 300 2 19216 57.3661 220.4414 6656511 198.6348 115.5647 2.09697875 5057 Meteor 3-2 1 19336U 89 50.53188374 0.00000391 10000-2 0 1338 2 19336 82.5376 258.9090 0016865 109.6056 250.6747 13.16855300 27429 NOAA 11 1 19531U 89 40.27281070 0.00000621 36716-3 0 442 2 19531 98.9254 344.9999 0011096 233.3855 126.6295 14.10800815 19437 Soyuz TM-7 1 19660U 89 52.13198168 0.00066097 49090-3 0 895 2 19660 51.6253 228.1424 0014021 302.3236 57.4676 15.72089267 13631 Cosmos 1986 1 19734U 89 30.04555172 0.00231193 10296-4 15848-3 0 635 2 19734 64.7693 165.7278 0036026 181.2863 178.8084 16.14732981 5107 1989 001A 1 19749U 89 40.54122425 0.00000021 10000-3 0 386 2 19749 64.8623 174.9880 0005168 283.2404 76.6691 2.13102189 665 1989 001B 1 19750U 89 40.59991529 0.00000021 10000-3 0 450 2 19750 64.8828 174.9892 0004542 255.2470 104.6752 2.13102350 664 1989 001C 1 19751U 89 40.53193346 0.00000021 10000-3 0 377 2 19751 64.8741 174.9866 0009234 258.6758 101.1945 2.13155878 668 1989 001F 1 19754U 89 32.99756385 0.00000021 10000-3 0 144 2 19754 64.8732 175.2408 0014280 316.8939 42.9607 2.13419920 480 1989 004A 1 19765U 89 50.20491269 0.00000128 10000-3 0 314 2 19765 1.4114 276.1293 0003273 2.0260 357.6579 1.00267808 257 1989 005A 1 19769U 89 53.07229554 0.00001097 42761-3 0 294 2 19769 74.0528 320.1490 0024657 275.9717 83.8608 14.30609131 3780 1989 005B 1 19770U 89 50.86702685 0.00001455 54285-3 0 215 2 19770 74.0501 323.9885 0010082 334.3912 25.6812 14.32723153 1159 1989 006A 1 19772U 89 49.50292193 0.00000185 10000-3 0 108 2 19772 0.2198 258.9479 0009629 196.6924 264.4338 1.00314990 215 1989 006B 1 19773U 89 50.71628201 -.00000028 10000-3 0 205 2 19773 8.3524 304.8710 7194025 196.2339 117.1882 2.25496289 549 1989 007A 1 19774U 89 52.90030017 0.00463426 34170-4 28376-3 0 716 2 19774 64.7330 259.8523 0124711 108.2147 242.7111 16.02644467 3939 1989 004F 1 19776U 89 44.52722249 -.00000068 10000-3 0 122 2 19776 1.4516 276.1445 0024509 312.9245 46.8061 0.97994865 208 1988 095F 1 19777U 89 43.80302547 -.00000066 10000-3 0 126 2 19777 1.2251 275.2099 0013255 74.4285 285.5929 0.97938571 182 1989 008A 1 19783U 89 52.95834637 0.00091608 66838-3 0 210 2 19783 51.6129 223.8891 0021000 313.0275 46.8181 15.72207439 1831 1989 009A 1 19785U 89 49.53586643 0.00000004 0 117 2 19785 82.6205 31.0347 0013669 15.6643 344.4869 12.64000666 1003 1989 009B 1 19786U 89 53.03832333 0.00000004 0 62 2 19786 82.6222 28.8372 0003102 50.3595 309.7770 12.61808705 829 1989 009C 1 19787U 89 53.11066529 0.00000004 0 79 2 19787 82.6129 28.7683 0006321 14.6360 345.4913 12.62574971 1440 1989 009D 1 19788U 89 53.10359853 0.00000004 0 120 2 19788 82.6185 28.7697 0009860 2.2165 357.8969 12.63354885 1455 1989 009E 1 19789U 89 53.09252746 0.00000004 0 100 2 19789 82.6104 28.7485 0016568 2.3806 357.7362 12.64579713 1308 1989 009F 1 19790U 89 53.08565803 0.00000004 0 67 2 19790 82.6176 28.7518 0020383 358.0932 2.0080 12.65340388 1455 1989 009G 1 19791U 89 48.15844392 0.00000004 0 52 2 19791 82.6117 31.9738 0035307 188.6063 171.2854 12.54766929 813 1989 010A 1 19792U 89 52.72684580 0.00036380 32973-3 0 179 2 19792 82.3554 49.0138 0038654 90.4019 270.2183 15.66846871 1737 1989 011A 1 19796U 89 50.18340778 -.00000090 18845-1 0 89 2 19796 62.8414 158.6121 7362997 318.2626 4.5767 2.00639898 110 1989 011B 1 19797U 89 52.66913804 0.00883627 10932-4 14827-2 0 183 2 19797 62.7788 131.8709 0243775 119.6174 242.8449 15.66064465 1174 1989 011C 1 19798U 89 52.65380306 0.01580496 36823-4 13375-2 0 158 2 19798 62.8379 131.7204 0246962 120.8231 241.6621 15.73533845 1181 1989 011D 1 19799U 89 46.21558859 0.00000108 10000-3 0 11 2 19799 62.8236 159.1473 7343173 318.2583 7.1245 2.03007144 35 1989 012A 1 19800U 89 52.73523130 0.00369668 16068-4 92245-3 0 265 2 19800 65.8451 4.9538 1368889 145.6006 224.1700 13.09223795 910 1989 012B 1 19801U 89 52.64562999 0.00542592 16245-4 12380-2 0 214 2 19801 65.8389 5.0950 1356733 145.4372 224.2897 13.12727082 897 1989 013A 1 19802U 89 49.61553610 0.00000015 10000-3 0 32 2 19802 55.1150 216.4765 0090439 179.8887 179.9325 2.01393533 42 1989 013C 1 19804U 89 49.59798811 0.00211815 19257-5 16118-2 0 65 2 19804 37.3648 210.0034 6083084 201.1965 115.4858 4.02759826 137 1989 014A 1 19807U 89 52.34786429 -.00000216 27010-2 0 95 2 19807 62.9398 342.2826 7419196 279.8171 11.1717 2.01425728 136 1989 014B 1 19808U 89 51.83159592 0.01337338 37447-4 12420-2 0 181 2 19808 62.9626 322.8075 0180149 63.1122 298.6651 15.86669671 859 1989 014C 1 19809U 89 52.53649316 0.00731430 20089-3 14929-2 0 132 2 19809 62.9474 320.2561 0149186 67.0103 294.7746 15.82170307 964 1989 014D 1 19810U 89 47.48706682 -.00000013 10000-3 0 10 2 19810 62.9452 342.9635 7370676 279.9307 15.3350 2.07100731 35 1989 015A 1 19818U 89 52.71463947 0.00118110 14264-4 12216-3 0 126 2 19818 62.8081 306.3565 0025535 80.1062 280.2924 16.09742808 663 1989 015B 1 19819U 89 53.00436603 0.03549895 41980-4 95555-3 0 133 2 19819 62.7878 305.0366 0006512 294.8991 65.4444 16.27754235 714 1989 016A 1 19822U 89 53.07560234 0.00001769 10000-3 0 14 2 19822 75.0715 105.9545 4345833 158.2948 224.7672 6.82410127 17 1989 016B 1 19823U 89 53.14835493 0.00541343 82524-4 37123-2 0 34 2 19823 74.5687 105.8448 0192888 176.8831 183.3559 15.56480003 31 -- Dr TS Kelso Asst Professor of Space Operations tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 89 08:05:17 GMT From: blue!szabonj@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Nick Szabo) Subject: Re: the un/manned debate In article <8287@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU> jmckerna@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (John McKernan) writes: >Criticism >should be directed at that program[NASA], not the entire field of research. I have directed my criticism at manned spaceflight in general. NASA as the dominant promoter of manned spaceflight in the U.S. provides the bulk of my examples. I have also discussed the Soviet program, SSI studies, etc. >Peer review applies to experiments, not entire fields of study. Peer review for >specific experiments in manned space is a good idea. Wrong. Peer review works in between as well as within fields of study. Its purpose is to determine the importance of a field of study, and prevent some fields from starving out other fields of study by taking the bulk of the resources. Clearly "manned spaceflight R&D", which is of trivial significance to biology and other fields, consumes far more than its share; peer review has broken down. (If you disagree with the "trivial significance", please explain why this R&D is so important to a field, eg human biology, that it deserves more funding than the entire rest of the field combined.) >It is ridiculous to say that the entire field of manned space R&D is not R&D. >What do you think it is Nick? Please note that I am refering to manned R&D in >general, not NASA's current program. My argument was that "manned space R&D" does not exist right now, because it is not funded through peer review. I am in favor of setting up a true manned space R&D project. I would guess its appropriate funding level would allow 2 or 3 KC135 flights per year, but since it is R&D this is up to the scientific community. >The number of general fields where R&D is important (i.e. physics, chemistry, >superconductors, manned space, etc.) is fairly small. Less than 1% of GNP is >spent on this kind of R&D anyway, and because of its importance to the future >a minimum amount must be spent in each area. I suggest a little stroll through our universities! There are hundreds upon hundreds of different research fields, most of them more important than manned space R&D. I can tick off 20 right off the cuff that are also more important to manned space flight in the future than current manned space R&D: astro- physics, fluid physics, nuclear physics, materials science, organic chemistry, planetary science, geology, atmospheric science, computer science, electrical engineering, robotics, industrial engineering, mechanical engineering, astronautical engineering, civil engineering, mining engineering, nano- technology, human factors, operations research, psychology. This just scratches the surface, there are probably dozens I didn't name. Some these fields have many subfields that are themselves more important than manned space R&D for the future of manned spaceflight itself, not to mention other important endevours in our future. >>The return in scientific knowledge, related to the dollars spent, most >>definitely *does* matter; this is the purpose of R&D. > >The return from a specific experiment is what matters. You cannot attack an >entire catagory of R&D, only specific experiments. An entire category most definitely can be attacked, and most definitely should be when it is demanding far more than its share of resources. >Do you think we should stop building particle accelerators >until room temperature superconducting wire costs 10 cents a meter? I don't know about your price, but multi-billion dollar accelerators can wait, and many (most?) physicists agree with me on this. Thousands of diverse physics experiments are being forsaken for the sake of the "supercollider". Most scientific advances, such as the recent superconductor advances, come out of a large, diverse "ecology" of research. Shovelling resources into large centralized projects destroys this source of scientific creativity, much as the destruction of Amazon rain forests destroy the working material of biological evolution. (This analogy comes from Freemon Dyson's *Disturbing the Universe*, which contains good insights on how scientific progress is made. He is not coincidentally very much opposed to projects like the Shuttle and Station). >Mining and the construction of a residential and >industrial infrastructure are essentially manned activities. On-site they are essentially machine activities. A naked man is worth nothing on an asteroid, but automated mines within the next few decades are plausible, given current rates of advance in automation technology. With very high transportation and labor costs, there is no other alternative. Humans will only go into space on a large scale when the machines needed to build the habitats, provide the food, water, etc. from native resources are already in place. >manned space needs >inexpensive access to space for large amounts of mass much more than unmanned. >You can't miniaturize people. My point exactly. True manned spaceflight must await drops of at least two orders of magnitude in launch cost, plus space infrastructure to support us when we get out there. Unmanned projects can start today exploring the solar system and building that infrastructure. The longer the unmanned projects wait, the longer people will wait. Let's start now. Nick Szabo szabonj@fred.cs.washington.edu ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V9 #263 *******************